What are your thoughts on Proposition 8?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mindy on September 22, 2008 at 3:25pm

...Are you sure you want to hear what all of us think? Even those of us who may not really be that religious...

Just checking before I say anything.

Permalink Reply by Jon Bishop on September 22, 2008 at 10:42pm

Just thought I'd point out how great this is as the first comment to this thread.

Permalink Reply by Maxie on September 22, 2008 at 3:27pm

Unfortunately I'm not a resident of California, but given the choice I would definitely vote against Proposition 8. I respect that everyone feels differently about gay marriage and religion, but my belief is every adult has the right to marry whomever they want--man or woman. For me it's that simple.

Permalink Reply by Mindy on September 22, 2008 at 3:33pm

I completely agree.

I'm an opinionated person, and could fly off about this topic in a bajillion different ways, hence asking if this topic was truly the best idea. But in a nutshell, I very much agree that every person should have the right to fall in love with and marry whomever they choose regardless of gender.

Permalink Reply by brandyismagic on September 22, 2008 at 5:50pm

You said what would have taken me 20 sentences in 2. Well done lady! We are definitely on the same page. ;)

Permalink Reply by Rebecca on September 22, 2008 at 3:40pm

I am asking (and yes MinD, everyone has their right to their opinion - and I am interested in knowing what yours is) - because I want to know what you all think AFTER reading the links that I provided.

I have SEVERAL close friends and family members who are homosexual. So I am sensitive to their feelings - but do you ALL realize what this means for those of us who ARE Religious? It interferes with OUR right to stand up for what we believe in. We don't HATE Homosexuals - but consider this Country was founded - based on Religious Freedom and passing this law jeopardizes those rights.

Permalink Reply by Rebecca on September 22, 2008 at 3:50pm

In addition: How fair is it to be sued for standing up for what you believe in? I reserve the right to teach my child that we don't HATE homosexuals, we love people for who they are - but we don't agree with their lifestyle. Now I might be sued for teaching my child that?

Permalink Reply by Rebecca on September 22, 2008 at 3:56pm

This is why I asked that people read the links. Every - law - is - Religious. People vote based on what they believe - don't they?

You'll find your answer to your question if you were to read the links I provided. Particularly the first 2.

Permalink Reply by Rebecca on September 22, 2008 at 5:42pm

If someone says "I don't believe in God" (Atheist) they are choosing not to believe in him, just as I choose to believe in him.

Permalink Reply by Mindy on September 22, 2008 at 4:12pm

"Believe" is subjective though. And laws were created based on religion, but may not carry the same esteem today as they did then.

People vote based on logic, too.

Permalink Reply by Mindy on September 22, 2008 at 4:01pm

I also don't live in California. I live in a state (NC) - did not, however, grow up here - that will probably be one of the very last to welcome same-sex marriages, so obviously, my stance on the issue is based on one that won't directly be affected by Proposition 8 and however it falls.

But, like Maxie said, I could never reasonably or logically tell someone they can't love and marry whomever they choose.

Yes, the county was founded specifically for religious freedom, but as time as progressed - hundreds of years, mind you - the basis for this country's establishment no longer applied. We created separation of church and state with reason, and when considering same-sex marriage, that separation is one that should apply.

We aren't a land of Protestants anymore, but one where many different people can come and practice their own independent religions, and not every single faith across the board disapproves of a homosexual lifestyle.

Who are we then to say that those people who do not hold the same beliefs, who do not make their choices and decisions (not that being a homosexual is truly a choice anyway) based on God and religious ideals do not deserve the same basic freedoms other individuals have been granted?

The links you provided discuss stripping the rights from churches who do not perform same-sex marriages and removing state-supported monies from organization's that turn homosexual individuals away. And despite not being religious myself, I can see how that would be unfortunate. But, in essense, what exactly makes this argument any different than the "black vs. white" issues our parents and/or grandparents faced? What exactly makes those individuals fighting so eagerly for their religious freedom - and thus, stripping homosexuals of what I consider basic human rights - any different than those who wanted to keep African Americans from drinking from the same water fountain?

To me, it's the same argument with a new face. It's the same criticism with a new face. It's people who are so attached to their religious beliefs that they cannot see that love is love no matter what genitalia you put on it.

People can swear up and down that they base their decisions on the Bible and on some moral ground they've grown up with, and that's fine. Whatever you want to believe and think, that's your own viewpoint to which you are completely entitled. But, for me, it's when people take that opinion and move it one step further by attempting to dictate which rights should be granted to others who clearly do not hold the same regard. It's telling people they aren't good enough to live here, in a land that was founded on freedom ... it's telling people that religious freedom, love, marriage, human rights are really only as good as the ideals of what, 300 years ago? And I'm sorry, but as a race, as a society, I'd like to think we've grown far beyond that period of time.

Permalink Reply by Rebecca on September 22, 2008 at 5:25pm

>> I could never reasonably or logically tell someone they can't love and marry whomever they choose.

Proposition 8 does not tell anyone who they can and can't love. It does not deny anyone their right to be "joined" or "unionized". It does not ATTACK anyone. It simply PROTECTS the sanctity of the WORD and MEANING of "marriage". California Civil Code already protects and grants to "civil unions" every right that "married" couples have. If this proposition were about taking away gay rights, I would be completely against it.

>> We created separation of church and state with reason, and when considering same-sex marriage, that separation is one that should apply.

You are correct. We created the separation of church and state for a reason. Why? So that ALL could believe and practice as they see fit without interference from the government. Not so that we could sue each other for practicing differently. Not so that my neighbor (who I love, play bridge, and attend neighborhood cookouts with) can sue me because I will not perform a religious ceremony for her and her domestic partner. We've already begun to see (those who will read the links I provided) If Proposition 8 fails, we continue to destroy our own constitution and bring the STATE in further control of church.

I don't see any heterosexual couples suing gay churches for not marrying them. In fact, I don't see any heterosexual couples who would even care whether a gay church excluded them from services, etc. Why are they so interested in ours? The gay lifestyle is a choice. God loves you whether you're gay or straight. That doesn't mean that he can change the universal laws (i.e. gravity).

>> We aren't a land of Protestants anymore, but one where many different people can come and practice their own independent religions, and not every single faith across the board disapproves of a homosexual lifestyle.

You are so right. Isn't it beautiful that we do not all believe the same thing! And isn't it beautiful that we live in a country that would allow a man to believe whatever he wants to believe (even if that means he believes that he should be allowed to "marry" another man (the current debate). Or even if he believes that he should retire his family, consisting of seven wives (3 of which are "underage") to a compound in Texas and live in peace without the law coming in and taking away his children.) I don't believe in either practice. But isn't it wonderful that we live in a land that has such freedom (or claims to). Isn't it wonderful that I can practice "pure" religion handed down from through the ages, as I see it, and not have to be bombarded with law suits for teaching my children as I see fit and as I believe God sees fit. If Proposition 8 fails, California schools will be required to teach my children and yours that marriage is a STATE institution (not religious) between a man and a man or a man and a woman or a woman and a woman (or...) What happened to MY rights?

>> ...what exactly makes this argument any different than the "black vs. white" issues our parents and/or grandparents faced?

You have no choice over what race you are born. If blacks went about suing whites for simply being white or for believing whites are supreme (NOT a position I hold, mind you) then there would be a problem. If whites went around killing those who are black (i.e. the KKK) we would have a problem. I do not believe that heterosexual people are better than homosexual people. But when a lesbian couple sues their doctor for not performing artificial insemination (due to his personal conscience, no matter how un-evolved you wish to argue that he may be), there is a problem. In short, when 4 activist judges can overturn the vote of an entire state of "the people", we have a problem.

>> What exactly makes those individuals fighting so eagerly for their religious freedom - and thus, stripping homosexuals of what I consider basic human rights - any different than those who wanted to keep African Americans from drinking from the same water fountain?

I agree with you on basic human rights, as I hope I've demonstrated above. All men and women are created equal and have the right to believe and do as they please as far as it does not endanger/harm another person or interfere on another persons right to believe as they see fit. Gay folks can be "joined" if they wish, but I should have the right, in the event of my untimely death, to leave my children to whomever I see fit, or to dictate that my children will go only to a couple consisting of man and woman. That is my right. Both myself and the orphanage should be protected from a lawsuit.

Proposition 8 is not about GAY RIGHTS! It is about protecting MARRIAGE. Let gays do what they do. But provide the same PROTECTION to "married" individuals. What does that mean? Man and Woman; Heterosexual RIGHTS.

A little off topic, but you brought it up. I believe every black man (or any other race) has the right to deny any other race the use of their business, property, etc. If that is how they feel. The Civil Rights fight in the 60s has not changed that. I believe it is right that PUBLIC utilities, facilities and services MUST be available to ALL. I also believe that it is McDonald's right to "refuse service to anyone". No shirt, no shoes, no service. No Mexican folks have ever sued (to my knowledge) BET for choosing to cater to BLACK entertainment. Why is it that gay couples can sue straight-believing doctors!?!

>> It's people who are so attached to their religious beliefs that they cannot see that love is love no matter what genitalia you put on it.

Or is it a matter of a people who are so DETACHED from religion and God that they cannot see how their ACTIONS (not their beliefs) are affecting my personal freedoms?

>> Whatever you want to believe and think, that's your own viewpoint to which you are completely entitled. But, for me, it's when people take that opinion and move it one step further by attempting to dictate which rights should be granted to others who clearly do not hold the same regard...

Thank you for allowing me my opinion and belief. I also appreciate yours. Once again, we agree. When people take their opinion or sexual preference one step further and attempt to dictate to MY organization, or to ME, what I can and cannot do in my PRIVATE practice or church, or what I MUST have my children taught in school—that's taking it too far.

>> ...It's telling people they aren't good enough to live here, in a land that was founded on freedom ... it's telling people that religious freedom, love, marriage, human rights are really only as good as the ideals of what, 300 years ago? And I'm sorry, but as a race, as a society, I'd like to think we've grown far beyond that period of time.

Why is it that those who attempt to maintain morals and virtue in this world are hated and seen as the less evolved? Do you hear what you're saying? That somehow I am not as good because I know God lives? Because I haven't accepted your "new" morality, that my opinion is somehow less relevant? "In today’s secular world, the idea of tolerance has come to mean something entirely different. Instead of love, it has come to mean condone – acceptance of wrongful behavior as the price of friendship." Vulgar language on Cable is fine. I can choose not to subscribe. Vulgar language on the publicly available TV used to be censored and is now encroaching on my choices and available entertainment. We've come a LONG way in 300 years!

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